Cameron D’Ambrosi [00:00:00] Hey, everyone. Welcome to this week’s episode of State of Identity featuring Mastercard and ID PBR on to talk about their joint venture to bring Mastercard’s digital identity network to the Brazilian market. We unpack the unique circumstances of the digital identity market in Brazil. Some of those similarities that Brazil has with other state level fragmented markets like the United States. What some of those killer use cases or an identity network are, as well as some of the challenges of spinning up an identity network without direct support from government agencies. Welcome everyone to State of Identity. I’m your host, Cameron Ambrosi. Joining me this week are Sarah Clark, Senior Vice President, Digital Identity at Mastercard and Carlos Collodoro, CEO at IDPBR. Sarah, Carlos, welcome to State of Identity.

Carlos Collodoro [00:00:57] So thank you. It’s very nice to meet you, Cameron. And we are really excited to talk about our partnership with Mastercard and what we are doing here in Brazil, our wonderful country O Deluxe to get to share some important information with you.

Cameron D’Ambrosi [00:01:13] Fantastic. Well, I will say right off the bat, the only disappointment I have about this episode is that I was not requested to fly to Brazil to record this in person. But we’ll solve that episode to live from Brazil, you know, preferably drinks in hand. So, you know, so much to talk about. And I think the Brazilian market in particular is one of intense interest to me and and our audience and really an area of, you know, intense innovation. And I think a lot of learnings that are highly relevant to many global markets, especially the United States. We’ll get into this. But I think so many kind of similarities between the Brazilian and U.S. markets and in many ways that I think our audience, again, will will find helpful. But before we do all that, maybe, Carlos, we can start with you. Would you mind sharing just a little bit of your background, your career journey into the digital identity space? I always think it’s fun to hear about, you know, how folks found their way into digital identity.

Carlos Collodoro [00:02:14] Okay. My background is in electrical engineering for the polytechnic school here in Sao Paulo state in Brazil. And then I provided services consultant service for governmental institutions at federal level and also state level that are responsible for the issuance of official. I did documents like Brazilian passport, Brazilian airline ID cards, the driver’s license. So based on the experience of more than two decades doing this kind of job, we learned a lot about fraud, what the forces were trying to do against the governmental institutions to get access to official documents based on fraud information. And then based on that, we learned that time. We realized that the private market would have a good advantage to get access to this kind of information. Then we started the beginning of 2000, yet to develop software, specifically software for biometric processing, and then we expanded the portfolio and then we’ve grown so, so many different kinds of service for fraud prevention in any kind of business here in Brazil. It’s important for the audience to know that Brazil is a very large country. Brazil has 27 different states. We are around 210 million people here. And then we have thousands, hundreds of thousands of companies, meals maybe that are potential customers of put fraud prevention solutions here. We provide what we call secured on onboarding processes here for so many kinds of verticals like retailers, banks, health plan, education and more. And what we do, we we get from our customers images of the ID document that’s being presented at the time of enrolling. Secondly, the demographics are extracted automatically from the documents image using OCR arranging. And then we perform a very robust processing to try to to get in information that is not according to the rules in detect fraud. So the answer of this process is yes or no to our customers is with all the details it gives of know why that specific person was considered as a potential fraudster. But the final decision belongs to our customers, not us. The decision the Aug. What decides if that person specifically is a fraudster or not? If they will accept or not to do their business? Three years ago. We start talking to Mastercard and Visa. Regards. We meet in Marseille, started working by end of the 2090 on the ID project. And then I think I can say that we developed a lot of things, demos of concepts of software infrastructure, technical infrastructure. And I think that now we can be a partner of Mastercard’s here in Brazil to launch this new product in the market that the acceptance or my, my, my view will be really, really great because it’s whole there is a hole in the market expecting a solution like the idea from Mastercard.

Cameron D’Ambrosi [00:05:51] Fantastic. Sarah, you know, I know you’re a multiple time guest star of the State of Identity podcast. Your, I believe three time podcast guest appearance challenge coin is is in the mail. So be on the lookout for that. But you know for for our listeners who might not be familiar with you, your background in your role at Mastercard, would you mind giving us a quick hit on that?

Sarah Clark [00:06:14] Yeah, sure. So I’ve been in the identity industry for about a decade now and I sort of accidentally fell into it exploring new product ideas. But my experiences, I had the opportunity to lead what is now one of the leading global identity verification providers. I’ve done a bunch of consulting, including with some of the large, the world’s largest banks, on their strategy with onboarding and what they can do with identity, as well as some of the largest corporations in the world. I’ve also spent time as an executive at a global biometrics and government provider of identity solutions. But I joined Mastercard about two years ago on the back of that experience, because what I was seeing in the industry was the need and building momentum towards the concept of a reusable digital I.D. following the paradigm that every individual has a right to own their own digital ID and also has a right to data privacy. And because of the pervasive data breaches leading to fraud cycle that we were in and still are and globally, that this was the next step that was important to continue to secure the ecosystem and make it accessible to all. And in summary, that’s exactly what we’re focused on. At Mastercard, we are building a globally interoperable ID network that, again, is based on the concept that you own your own digital ID, your data privacy is preserved. That’s both creating easier user experiences with a high level of assurance and fighting fraud are our goals. So conceptually, using your digital ID should be something that you can do anywhere globally. We’re becoming a more global world, I guess, so to speak. Digital nomads, people are sort of moving around more often, so it’s important that we have a digital ID that we can use globally, that it’s easy to use, and that it’s respecting your data privacy and also helping to break the cycle of identity fraud. So we are doing a lot of work across seven different markets right now. Brazil is one of our beachhead markets. It’s very important to our business. As Carlos said, Brazil is a large market. It’s a very vibrant market. I think it’s the world’s largest growth when it comes to fintech as an example. Lots of new digital experiences are being rolled out in Brazil, and I know it’s a market that a lot of global names are also very interested in. So we are releasing ID Network in Brazil now. We’ve already started the process and fighting for easier user experiences and really serving the digital growth in Brazil is very key to our business and something we’re very focused on.

Cameron D’Ambrosi [00:09:24] Amazing. So, you know, we have a bit of an outline we want to stick to. So I’ll try and stick to the script. But there’s a lot of exciting, you know, rabbit holes we might go down. But, you know, as I alluded in the intro, I think what’s so exciting and interesting for me about Brazil are many of those similarities between, you know, the Brazilian market and the U.S. market, which is, you know, of core interest to our audience. I think, you know, as Carlos, you had mentioned a bunch of state level differences in terms of the types of documents that folks have access to, different state level agencies that maybe have a bit more autonomy than many countries, you know, as compared to like a Germany or a France, a bit more fragmented, you know, Americans stop me if you are recognizing any similarities here, you know, in addition to high mobile and Internet penetration, really high adoption of e-commerce rates and and also similar to the U.S., you know, a spiking challenge around fraud, particularly when it comes to digital identity. So. Carlos, you know, you’re obviously the Brazilian expert here. You know, did I hit on on some of those similarities correctly and would love some more context from you on kind of the state of the current market situation and landscape in Brazil.

Carlos Collodoro [00:10:39] Okay. First thing I can say is that the in this standpoint, the you are talking about Brazil and the USA are very similar because our ID card is a state level responsibility. In the same way, there’s the driver’s license. The U.S. is the state level response to that. So the difference may be is we have federal regulations, federal laws that regulates how the I.D. card has been issued here in Brazil, what the what the document has to look like, the security features that are mandatory in the document itself. But the problem is the difference among the states. We have states very rich like Sao Paulo in the states, very poor in the northeastern region of Brazil. So the problem is the costs, how to issue a made document in a secure way against fraud. So these means that the states have different bidding processes to contract the solutions for that. We have some of a lot of restrictions according to the law. We have a maximum of five years of contracts. We have a ways to amend the contract to have everything controlled. Okay. But the main the biggest difference, in my opinion, is in Brazil. Our culture here is we do not have any restriction to provide our biometrics for any anyone want to do anything. It’s cultural. If we go, for example, if I go to visit Marcello here, Mastercard’s offices here in Sao Paulo, they ask to me and my photo, but there is no product put in front of the camera. They take my picture, then I go to meet Marcello. I don’t ask them why and what they are going to do with my face image. I know that’s a very big difference compared to the US object. That’s one thing. The second thing is the fraudsters in Brazil are really, really creative. It’s incredible. We are in this market for so many years. So every day we have a new for every day. And fraud that we never thought about before. We couldn’t imagine that we could create a fraud like that. It means that we have to keep investing in anti-fraud processes, procedures and technologies. To put to protect all the business here. And a third important question on my point here in Brazil is. We have so many kinds of difference documents. We have very weak documents. Unfortunately, with our ID card, the driver’s laws are still paper based. It’s not plastic. Now we have a new regulation that from 2000 to 2023, our new I.D. will be issued on plastic bags with no chip in it. Okay. But this is totally new in the States. We have ten years to change all the ideas. And then in ten years from now, all the I.D. documents will be plastic based. No more paper based, but still there. We have ten years of problems in terms of fraud. Very, very easy to fraud. An idea here in Brazil.

Cameron D’Ambrosi [00:14:05] And, you know, the unique challenges that that crossover period presents. Right. So every year of this transition period, you need to accommodate the new document types as well as the old ones. And obviously you’re not going to be able to ah or want to from a business perspective, you know, discriminate against someone because they don’t have a new plastic ID, you know, their money is, is, is as good as anyone else’s. So I think that’s that’s super, super helpful. Sara, you know, from your perspective, providing trusted digital experiences in Brazil, you know, how much of a challenge has that been for Mastercard and for your partners? And, you know, what is the market opportunity for kind of bringing digital identity to the masses around access?

Sarah Clark [00:14:47] Well, I think the market opportunity is absolutely huge because this is a market that’s growing rapidly and needs trusted experiences. So huge opportunity. Big problem. Part of the reason that we’re active in Brazil is because the way we’ve constructed its network, we feel is really a solution or can be a really strong solution to the problem. So first, let me just mention, you know, we are partnered with IDP, VR in general. One of our guiding philosophies is to partner with those that have very, very deep regional knowledge of the ID ecosystem, the fraud landscape, and the different layers that are really required by a digital identity solution to be viable or effective. So we’re very happy to be partnered with IDP VR as one of our key partners in Brazil, bringing this knowledge and expertize to the network. Second, I mean, I echo what Carlos said about biometrics being more largely embraced in the Brazil market. It’s sort of different in different parts of the world. And I know that Liminal has touched on that. Certainly in the past, our product is decentralized. We at Mastercard consider biometrics to be PII and something that must be strongly protected. But the way that the network works is we bind a biometric to a device after a very robust onboarding into the ID network. And then as a just general philosophy. And the way we’ve implemented the network is we surround everything with lots of signals that leverage not only the ID document. And I think Carlos spoke to some of the challenges with respect to verifying an ID document. But that leverage device reputation, different data checks, route of trust checks. You know, in cases where we can dip into a government ecosystem to do a biometric check to the writ of trust, that’s something that we’ll do. So applying all of these layers, the local expertize and just the way the ID network is constructed. What we’re seeing very early is a lot of interest in our solution. You know, we are early days. Part of our guiding principle is we do measure everything to a very high level of detail. Right now, we’re looking at really great results when it comes to the ease of onboarding. 97% of folks in Brazil that have used the ID network said that it was very easy to onboard and to use. But we’re also seeing good results when it comes to looking at fraud and keeping the bad actors out. So that’s something we’ll certainly continue to lean in on to through partners such as ID, PBR, through strong government partnerships, and through the use of multiple layers of advanced technology, which, you know, as we all know and your listeners know, has really evolved very significantly over the, you know, the last 5 to 10 years.

Cameron D’Ambrosi [00:18:02] So in thinking about, you know, where. The different roles of the public and private sector are. You know, I think that’s a really interesting dynamic in in markets across the world. Obviously, we have some markets like the EU where, you know, government is really looking to kind of take a primary role in the creation of digital identities. You know, with EADS 2.0, for example, you know, where do we see Brazil kind of falling on that spectrum? And, you know, how can the government support digital ID and data privacy maybe in the absence of directly running a scheme themselves?

Carlos Collodoro [00:18:42] Is this question for me?

Cameron D’Ambrosi [00:18:44] Sure. Any of these questions? You know, both of you, feel free to jump on in.

Carlos Collodoro [00:18:49] Okay. Okay. First of all, I know very well how the government here in Brazil works. We know the several initiatives that they have to to implement the digital age. But we also know that they have so many difficulties, too, to overcome. Okay. It’s not that easy. The governmental entities are really large, really slow, and the cost for them is really high. So and compare comparing any initiative that the government here in Brazil has. I would say that it’s not comparable with the idea for Mastercard because they therefore Mastercard is reusable anywhere any time. For a for a governmental agency here in Brazil to have a similar idea that they’ll take decades to get there because they don’t have the expertize, they don’t have the expertize. They don’t know what the problems are. They cannot say provide service to the private market in terms of fraud analysis and how to prevent more frauds along the time. It’s totally different. They have one database. They want to sell queries to this database, period. So the private the private market here is looking for solution. And when I say solution, I mean an integrated solution. It’s not not only the idea is the idea. The frauds that over the past of the last month. Why did they pass? Why what didn’t function well last month? Next month. So we needed to do group to have this kind of feedback and to work together with our customers to minimize permanently difference. No governmental institution will perform a service like this. We provide service like this on us. No, no.

Sarah Clark [00:20:48] I mean, I guess to an earlier point, you know, the fraud vectors do, you know, like fraudsters are very innovative and we see that they’re appropriated. Yeah, but globally. So I was just reading an article yesterday about injection attacks of biometrics being, you know, sort of a new vector of fraud. And, you know, those are certainly themes that we in the private sector are working on globally monitoring this. And I think to Carlos’s point, that’s very challenging for the government to provide. But I guess a couple other points on the topic of government in Brazil. You know, many people may not know that Brazil does have one of the strongest data privacy laws globally. Carlos can probably speak more effectively to this, but very similar to GDP, PBR in the EU. So that’s that’s one thing that maybe people aren’t aware of. Data privacy is an issue and something that’s getting increasing regulatory and legislative attention in Brazil. And yeah, I mean, on the topic of what the government is doing, there are some services that we consume and that PBR consumes in terms of being able to track evidence submitted by an individual with government databases. So we would consider ourselves to be in partnership with the government in terms of we utilize the services that they provide where we can do a route of trust check. But those services alone aren’t sufficient to reduce fraud and to really ensure the high level of assurance needed for the private sector. The other layers behavioral biometrics, active biometrics, genuine presence detection and liveness. These are all innovations that we are always keeping up with on a global scale and something that the private sector can layer in to the government services that they are increasingly providing in an attempt to solidify these public private partnerships and to make the entire ecosystem more safe.

Carlos Collodoro [00:23:06] Yeah. Yeah.

Cameron D’Ambrosi [00:23:07] So that’s a perfect Segway, you might say, into, you know, what is the current state of the partnership between Mastercard and PBR and and how are you actually looking to kind of, you know, plug some of these critical gaps in the identity infrastructure in Brazil, you know, with your identity network?

Sarah Clark [00:23:26] Yeah. So I can address that. Our ID network is very partnership focused. As I mentioned earlier, we really do look to leverage our regional specific expertize because we know that different regions just, you know, you need to really understand the dynamics of the region and a global player, you know, it’s unrealistic that we would have that level of knowledge. And so how we’re partnered with PBR is they are bolted on to the global ID network as an identity provider. So this means that individuals in Brazil use their app to onboard their identity into the ID network the app, and that capability is provided by I.D. PBR meets the operating rules and standards of the ID network. So we, you know, we have standards that include, you know, having to use different layers of technology that I already discussed, having to fall within certain rates when it comes to good users succeeding and bad actors staying out and constantly measuring and reporting on these outcomes as some examples. So they meet our standards. They’re a great partner, but they bolt on as an identity provider where they help onboard people onto the ID network, and their app is also used by individuals to share their identity within the Brazilian market.

Carlos Collodoro [00:25:03] You know, I’ll compliment that saying that we are working very close to Mastercard, to Brazil and also the U.S. So we know very well the the requirements that Mastercard defined for that the network. Then we are a huge efforts to meet all the requirements to make everything according to the rules, and to make sure that we are on the right way to provide a good service, a robust fraud prevention infrastructure. And then we are also always looking for new techniques or new technologies that we can we are able to integrate into our platform here to provide better services all the time. That’s what we are doing.

Cameron D’Ambrosi [00:25:49] So, you know, in thinking about where the, you know, the future state of the ID network can lead us and what those use cases are, you know, both in the Brazilian market as well as I think, you know, supporting Brazilians and the Brazilian diaspora as they, you know, whether it’s travel or whether it’s, you know, working as an expatriate across the globe like use cases, do you think are going to be most impactful immediately? And, you know, where are those falling on? As we like to talk about here at Liminal, kind of the level of assurance scale, like are you targeting, you know, the highest and most secure of use cases or do we think we can have a higher impact on, you know, lower assurance use cases like, I don’t know, food delivery or, you know, ensuring online trust and safety for things like social media.

Sarah Clark [00:26:39] So let me start with sort of a broad brush of our strategy and then I’ll let Carlos go into some of the specific use cases in Brazil. But one of our big challenges bringing up a new network is the classic chicken and the egg challenge. We need individuals to participate on the network to attract businesses that want to accept those reusable IDs. So in Brazil, one of the ways that we are looking to solve or we are solving for that challenge is one of our beachhead. Use cases has to do with university life education sector. So there are a lot of needs in the Brazil market to make the university experience more trusted, to have more digital capabilities. And those are high frequency use cases where the student body and the university itself can benefit from having a digital I.D. that they use to access university services digitally, as well as to access services in person. So through that, we are looking to begin with a footprint of young adults where we then layer in other life journey use cases. So that sort of at a high level one of the main strategies we’re employing in Brazil. But to answer your question more directly, Cameroon’s frequency of use is really key. So if you were to have a reusable ID and you could use it to open a bank account, that might not be something you do very often, but if you have a reusable ID and you can use it daily to verify your age to get a discount to ride the metro, well, that’s something that is really important and frequent and that sort of trains that user experience. I think that’s the other challenge that we have is, you know, all of us on State of the Identity, we sort of understand what a reusable idea’s your average person may not. So we’re really focused on tackling use cases where we can sort of tackle the chicken and the egg, as well as provide lots of value and utility to individuals through frequency of use, which of course also provides value to the businesses that would otherwise have problems with trust in that frequency of use use case. So we’ll be talking about what some of those are. Just really briefly, one more attribute that I’m going to point out is hybrid. Hybrid use cases are everywhere if you start to take a look. And multichannel is also really, really, really important. And to me, that’s a huge driver of reusable ID because people want to be able to start to interact with a business on mobile or online and then maybe go in-person camera. And you mentioned delivery. I think that’s an interesting example of that. But there’s more and more examples of these hybrid user experiences, and those are everywhere in Brazil. I mean, I think they’re everywhere globally. But we really see a need for businesses to support interacting with their customers through whichever channel they choose. Having it be consistent always have the same level of security. You don’t want fraud to all flow to your call call center, for example. You want it to be consistent and easy and to enable people to start something in one channel and finish it in another. And we’re tackling lots of that type of use case as well in Brazil.

Carlos Collodoro [00:30:25] You know.

Sarah Clark [00:30:25] So maybe Carlos can walk through some specific examples. Yeah.

Carlos Collodoro [00:30:31] Sure, sure. It’s important to point out here, camera that we started to respect the interests of companies in their distribution last year. Beginning of last year. The almost 20 months ago. And then for our surprise, the feedback that we got from every company that we approached was really, really great. They said, I didn’t have any idea that this kind of solution could exist. We want to be part of your projects as a pilot and a partner. Please let me know how can I help it? Can I support? I know you. You’re talking about several different kinds of verticals. We talked to people from health brands, private health companies, education, universities, as Sara said, large commercial, complex condominiums. Then Cinema network for companies that have hundreds of hundred, 500 rooms for cinema. Then we had foot soccer games, soccer clubs. They didn’t want to control the access to the stadiums, to the club, to their internal systems. So, so many different kinds of use case. I’ll give you some some examples. Sara talked about the university. The university. We have some music history. One is for a student identification or authentication when he’s applying for an exam in person or remotely to make sure that the student that that’s their is the right student. The second one is to get books from the library. They used fingerprints for that, but no external wants to to want to use fingerprints anymore. So we are going to replace my face image using the idea. Then we have a third one is the access to the student portal is universal and the professor portal at the university. So this means a huge change in their day by day activities and they are like they are enjoying very, very much. They said this is the right solution for us in the same way in the larger condominium in Brasilia, which is our capital here in Brazil, it’s a condominium that has nine towers each towers of around two floors, dozens of offices per floor. So we have thousands of people that work there and thousands of people that visit the 9 hours every day. So if you use of the use of when you go to one specific tower, you see at the reception maybe 3100 people within the line to get inside before they can access the beauty to make a visit. So we are going to use the idea to schedule in advance of this visit and issued a QR code for the visitor. So suppose that you want to visit me here. You ask me to introduce Julio Tuesday next week, 2 p.m.? Yes. So I send you back to inside. Then you get using your I.D., you get one QR code. When you come here in the office, you just go to the turnstile, put your QR code in front of the QR code reader, and then you have access to the need to go to any reception, to show any documents, to see anything. You are already prudent identifying. That’s another use case that we are working here. The is running another one.

Sarah Clark [00:34:12] So just to instruct on that from a self-serving point of view, we are really looking forward to launching that use case to scale in Brazil because, you know, everywhere takes security very seriously. And you really do have to show as a traveler to Brazil and Cameron on our next podcast, you’ll experience this as well when we’re all together at a bar in Sao Paulo to get into that bar, restaurant even, you’ll need to show a passport. So it’s it is quite inefficient for everyone today. So how do we keep a better level of security and make the process more efficient? So we’re finding that to be a really key use case for just about everywhere you need to go. So we’re really excited about that one.

Carlos Collodoro [00:34:58] Carlos and another. Sara. So last June 22nd, we we had an event here that is called Mastercard. I did day where Sara was there, the master of Indian was there. Then we launched this. There’s a use case of this condominium. I didn’t have the opportunity for Sara to talk to him in Brazil, but this morning I was told that there is an organization that represents 500 different condominiums that want to be part of our project. So the interest is huge. So everywhere we go and we talk, they have to. They want people to. They want more information to go deeper. The solution, they want to know how they can participate in that. And it’s so okay. So there are so many other use cases. We are now talking to Hotel Network International one in Brazil. They liked it very much. There was they were there at the event and now maybe by this month we will start talking to them to bring them to the paratroopers. Why? One use case very simple to understand. These are very, very high level audio. And suddenly around 50 persons come to the hotel to check in. So they spend one hour, an hour and a half to two checking all the 50 people. But as they are very high level, the people also are high level. So they will Joe would like to reduce as much as possible. This taking time and using the idea is totally feasible. If they understood that. So probably maybe one month from now we will have this hotel network, but also our pilot here.

Sarah Clark [00:36:46] So I guess maybe on the theme of sort of similarities with the US market, I do think that the delivery use case that we’re also looking at is an interesting one. So that that’s another one that we’re beginning to be active in. Cameron And that’s all about how do you ensure that the person that ordered the goods is the same person that’s picking them up or that you’re delivering to? And if you sort of extrapolate that use case curbside pick up, you know, there’s there’s just so many different use cases, I think, in the U.S. and globally, not to mention Brazil, where it’s definitely not uncommon for deliveries to get stolen or taken by the wrong person. But that’s another really interesting one. And, you know, age verification, I think, is also one of the great use cases of our time. It’s a little different than other markets there. It’s not quite as regulated like liquor sales as in really where we’re focused, but it is mandated by law that certain types of services provide an age based discount to participate in. So one example is public transportation. And Carlos, correct me if I’m wrong, but in my understanding, the law says that if you’re young or if you’re old.

Carlos Collodoro [00:38:11] You get disabled or disabled. Yes.

Sarah Clark [00:38:14] Right. So the need for age verification is slightly different and maybe targeted at a slightly different place. But sort of the need for it is strong. And that’s another use case that we’re very active in because again, you have that frequency of use that’s also very important.

Carlos Collodoro [00:38:34] Yes. Yes. So there are so many use cases we can talk about.

Cameron D’Ambrosi [00:38:40] Yeah. In I mean, literally infinite. Towards that end, we are coming up on time here. But I did want to give a couple opportunities for you to, you know, for folks who are listening and are interested for their use case to be a part of the network, what is the best place for them to go? Who should they contact? How do they reach out?

Sarah Clark [00:39:01] Well we have a website it’s called I do service dot com. Folks can find me pretty easily on LinkedIn. I’m pretty active there. So reaching out to me is is great. I embrace it and I love to talk to anyone about this stuff and their interest, you know, not only in Brazil, but we will be looking towards the rest of Latin America. And of course, we’re active in seven markets. So certainly feel free to reach out to me with any questions.

Carlos Collodoro [00:39:30] In the here in Brazil Cameron. In addition to Sara, the people can be in touch with Marcello Bellini here, his place here, Sao Paulo. And we are we are in touch all the time. And that and then maybe in a couple of months from now, we will have a specific channel to communicate to us directly. But it’s on the way. It’s not it’s not available. It’s that the best way to do it today is through Mastercard. Okay.

Cameron D’Ambrosi [00:39:59] Fantastic. Well, thank you both so much for your time. Greatly, greatly appreciate it. For folks listening, you know, if you want to get in touch, please reach out. I’ll make sure to include links to the program in the show notes below. Carlos Sarah, thank you again and hope to connect with you soon and hear about all the tremendous new, exciting partners that you’ve added to the network.

Sarah Clark [00:40:24] Thank you.

Carlos Collodoro [00:40:25] Thank you, Cameron. Let’s talk to.